Employees at Start Elevator in Bronx, New York are trying to organize with International Union of Elevator Constructors (IUEC) Local 1. Unsurprisingly, Start Elevator was quick to go after its own employees by hiring union-buster Mike Penn, Partner at The Crossroad Group and holding captive audience meetings.
Organizing workers are pushing back and recently live streamed one of Mike Penn’s captive audience presentation filled with lies and anti-union propaganda
You can view the entire video here.
LaborLab has now transcribed the entire video in order to help expose the tactics used by the union-busting industry. The transcript follows after the break.
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TRANSCRIPT
Mike Penn
To hire, classify, transfer and assign work. Promote, [inaudible 00:00:09] or recall. To make and enforce reasonable rules and regulations. To maintain order and efficiency. To schedule the hours of work, to determine the services, processes, and extent of the employer’s operations, the types and quantities of machinery, the nature, extent, duration, character, and method of operation, including, but not limited to, the right to contract out or subcontract. The right to determine the number of employees and how they shall be employed, and the quality and quantity of workmanship and work required to ensure maximum efficiency.
So, again, there are certain things that the company does not relinquish in a Union contract. They have a right to run their business, right? Union or no Union, company has a right to run their business. So, employees have said to me, “But if the Union comes in, they have to represent us fairly. Right?”
Well, the Union has what’s called a duty of fair representation under the law. And that is why in every Union contract there is a grievance procedure. There’s a grievance procedure as a way of the Union complying with their legal obligation of the duty of fair representation. For those of you who haven’t been in a Union, a Union grievance procedure is usually most contracts between three and five steps. Now, grievance is not any complaint. A grievance is a violation of the collective bargaining agreement of the contract. That’s what a grievance is. The first step is always going to your shop steward or Union business representative.
The final step in any grievance procedure is arbitration. However, only a very small percentage of grievances are ever taken to arbitration, because if it goes to arbitration, the Union has to split the costs with the company. Union doesn’t like to spend their own money, but by law, they have to split those costs with the company that goes to arbitration. The only control as a Union member that you have in the grievance procedure process is whether you file the grievance or not, because that’s up to you, right. Whether you file a grievance or not.
Once you file the grievance, legally, the Union has 100% control of that grievance. Meaning they get to decide whether or not they want to defend you, whether or not they’re going to take up the grievance. If they decide to take up the grievance, they don’t have to bring it all the way to arbitration. They can settle it out or drop it anywhere along the steps along the way of the grievance procedure. As long as they investigate, they have complied with their legal obligation.
They can make whatever decision they want legally at that point. There was a very famous arbitrator. Guy’s name was Louis Zigman down in California, and he was known as a pro-Union arbitrator because there are some arbitrators that are known to be a little pro-employer. Others pro-Union. Others are kind of straight down the middle. This guy was very well known, but he was known to kind of favor the Unions and so some of the major Unions went to him and said, “Would you write us a manual that we could use with our shop stewards and business agents, so that they know what they have to do which to comply with their duty of fair representation?”
And he wrote a manual called Grievance Processing for Union Stewards and Business Representatives. That is still used to this day in many Unions. And in it, he talks about the duty of fair representation. And he said, “A Union’s decision not to process a grievance to arbitration, meaning take it all the way to arbitration, even if apparently erroneous will not generally constitute a breach of duty of fair representation, as long as sufficient investigation has been performed.” In other words, let’s say you’re a Union member and the company that you [inaudible 00:04:54] Union, you say, “Hey, I think this is unfair. It’s unjust. I’m filing a grievance.”
And if the Union doesn’t take up your grievance or takes it up and then drops it, if you were to sue the Union in a court of law, even if the judge agrees with you, even if the judge says, “You know, I agree with this employee, with this Union member, the Union was wrong. They made a mistake. They should have taken this grievance all the way to arbitration. It was unfair.” It doesn’t matter as long as the Union did their investigation, even if the Union was wrong, you lose the lawsuit and the Union wins.
Because, as it says here, the Union is not required to be right in its decisions. It can be wrong. As long as they investigate, they have complied with their duty of fair representation.
Worker 1
Yes, but the same exact thing that you just described there can happen at Start, at a private company.
Mike Penn
It can. Absolutely.
Worker 1
So why are we talking about this?
Mike Penn
Because I’m showing that there’s not more protection, necessarily with the Union.
Worker 1
Yeah, but we’ve actually gained a tool, which is the ability to be able to file the complaint to the Union.
Mike Penn
You have the ability to file [inaudible 00:06:23] you can file. I happen to know somebody told me they just filed a harassment claim here at this company with human resources. They’re procedures here in this company. By the way, companies have to have those procedures for certain things, right. To comply with the law, right. There are procedures here, too, to file complaints or issues, right? To resolve issues, right. If you’re a Union member and you’re not happy with the way the Union is representing you, right. You feel that they’re not complying with their duty of fair representation, your avenue to complain is through the National Labour Relations Board.
You have the right to file what’s called an Unfair Labour Practise Charge, a ULP with the National Labour Relations Board, with the federal government. Now, the rule of thumb usually is for every one of these that are filed, there are 100 other employees that have the same issue but choose not to file it. Just like with a company. There are a lot of employees that work in all different companies who feel, “You know, I think the company did something that I could actually sue.” But a lot of employees will say to themselves, “The company has their own attorney. I’m going to have to go hire an attorney. It’s going to be hard to win. And if I file a lawsuit against my own company, I’m painting a target on my back. They’re going to find some way of messing with me, of trying to get rid of me if I do that.”
So, very few guys, very few employees actually sue their own company, even though a lot more think about it. Same thing with the Union. A lot of Union members say to themselves, “Hey, if I file a charge against the Union, I’m going to have a target painted on my back and not worth it to go through that.” But still, there are actually a lot of charges filed against Local One, by their own members.
And I’m going to just show you a few to give you a little flavor of what these charges are like. So if you’re filing a charge against a Union, not just Local One, I’m just showing you Local One, but this is any Union, right? You’re filing as a member, a charge against your own Union. This is the form that the government gives you to fill out.
You have to fill out this exact form. Now, it can be handwritten. It can be typed. It says on the top United States of America National Labour Relations Board charge against Labour organization or its agents. Again, I’m just showing you Local One and you notice this one is redacted. It’s blacked out. It’s because if you’re a Union member filing one of these charges, the Union sees your name and address, and phone number. But before it becomes public record, because that’s where I got it from.
Public record. Before it becomes public record, you have a right to tell the NLRB I don’t want my name and phone number, and home address out there in the public domain. If you ask them, they will then redact it. Most of the ones I’m going to be showing you, the employees didn’t even ask for it to be hidden. So you see their name and their home address and their phone number. Right. But at least you have the right to have it redacted before it hits the public. So this is an employee who is complaining, saying that he was fired.
Local One refused to take up his grievance. He appealed to the International Union, Elevator Constructors, and they wouldn’t even return his phone call. So he’s filing a charge against the Union. Here’s one. The employee’s name is Robert Delgado. And again, his home address, his personal phone numbers are right there on the charge. And this is a very common charge against Local One. He said that Local One is showing favoritism and discriminating in referring guys out from the hiring hall. A lot of charges on this with Local One about favoritism and discrimination in the hiring hall.
Here’s one Robert Atkin, worked for Otis Elevator. Again, he’s complaining about the hiring practice of Local One.
Worker 1
I feel like what you’re showing us is a little bit unfair because we’re only really hearing one side of the story. What if we sat down with Local One or even Otis to explain why they gave this man such a hard time?
Worker 2
They’re not willing to [crosstalk 00:11:46].
Mike Penn
In my experience, but again, certainly if you want to do your due diligence and homework, that’s great. In my experience, some of these, there’s no way for me knowing, right. All we can see is when the charge is filed with the federal government. The grievance itself between the member of the Union is between the member and the Union. That’s not public record. I can’t see those. If the Union is willing to show you, that’s great.
Worker 1
Well, my point was then it’s really not fair for you to use these because you’re not giving us both sides. It’s kind of like you’re just using [crosstalk 00:12:21]
Worker 2
You’re just using the negative of it.
Mike Penn
You see how many members are unhappy with the representation…
Worker 1
How many members out of how many? You’re not giving us a number? We have 34,000 members, right? [crosstalk 00:12:31] 3,400, pardon me.
Mike Penn
About 3000 members at Local One, right.
Worker 2
34.
Worker 1
That’s irrelevant, because the point I’m trying to make is this, is if you’re only giving us one side and it can be used to manipulate the narrative here.
Worker 2
And when were these papers filed, Mike? When were these papers even filed?
Mike Penn
These are all within the last several years. By the way, the last year is not even available, right? Doesn’t become public records for twelve to eighteen [crosstalk 00:12:59].
Worker 2
So these can go back seven, six, seven years?
Mike Penn
These go back three, four years. There’s only one I’m going to show you later on about a strike that goes way back. I’ll show you that.
Worker 1
I just don’t think it’s fair that’s all to be brief, [crosstalk 00:13:18] especially within the context of why we’re even here, right. Because it just kind of feels like with the little things you say, you’re just beating on Local One, and that’s not right.
Worker 2
How many do you think has been filed in the past five years?
Mike Penn
I’d have to get that information for you.
Worker 2
That should have been the information. [crosstalk 00:13:37]
Worker 1
So we don’t know the other side of the story, so all this is irrelevant.
Mike Penn
I was about to say just in my experience on these things, for what it’s worth, you have some of these filed by guys that should have been fired, right?
Worker 1
Absolutely [crosstalk 00:13:48].
Mike Penn
In other words, that were just screw-ups, right. And were properly fired and the Union doesn’t take up their grievance because they say, “Hey, you messed up. And what do you want from us?” Others, though not so much. Right.
Worker 1
That makes the number of filed grievances even smaller.
Mike Penn
Well, no, it doesn’t make the filed grievance, it makes the number of legitimate grievances smaller. Right?
Worker 1
Well, just as a whole, if half of them were supposed to be fired anyway, then we’re talking about how many, exactly? A handful out of…
Worker 2
34,000?
Worker 1
3,400
Mike Penn
3,400. More than a handful.
Worker 1
Two handfuls.
Mike Penn
So again, this guy Joseph Hennessey got fired from Excel Elevator and Escalator. Again Union wouldn’t take up his grievance. Here’s one the employee is Timothy Maloney, he was laid off from Otis. He claimed that he was laid off unjustly because there were other guys either with less seniority or less experience, who were laid off, and then he complains, then the Union wouldn’t refer him to work through the hiring hall. So that’s his grievance. Here’s one, Thomas Shay, who was fired at Schindler and says the Union refused to defend.
Worker 1
I wonder what he did.
Mike Penn
Steven Foster, again at Otis. Terminated and said the Union, unfairly, for discriminatory reasons wouldn’t take up his…
Worker 2
Yeah. But Mike, we fired a tonne of people here, too. I mean, this doesn’t tell me anything, Mike.
Worker 1
Well, the point that Mike is trying to make is that even though you file a grievance, it doesn’t mean they’re going to do shit about it, right?
Mike Penn
That is correct.
Worker 1
Which again, is a pretty insignificant point because it can happen on both sides.
Mike Penn
I don’t think it’s insignificant.
Worker 2
I kind of do.
Worker 1
Well, it’s insignificant for this reason, because the same thing can happen on both sides. But like I said before, despite the fact that it can happen on both sides, we gained something by going Local One. Which is [crosstalk 00:16:00]
Worker 2
We gained a lot more of something.
Mike Penn
I understand what your opinion is on it, and you have a right to that opinion. But again, everyone has to decide [crosstalk 00:16:10]
Worker 1
Okay, explain to me again, what is the significance?
Mike Penn
The significance is one, as you said, they don’t have to take up the grievance. [inaudible 00:16:24] they have to take the grievance to arbitration if you file a grievance, they don’t. Right. And then second is because it does show a level, a certain level of dissatisfaction with the representation [inaudible 00:16:35], either justifiably or not. Justifiably depending on the specific thing. So, again, this is an interesting one. This guy, Brian Kelly Jr. He said that the Union refused to take up his grievance and refuses to give him work because of his family’s animosity with the Union’s executive board. I don’t know if he has a father or brother that got sideways with Local One.
And also this guy, Bryan Kelly Jr. Created a website on which he criticized the executive board of Local One. And he says ever since he criticized the executive board of Local One, they won’t refer him to any more work. He’s on the bench. Here’s one William Henrik, who said that he was getting steady work with the Union. He filed a charge with the Labour Board, filed a charge with the National Labour Board. And once he did that, all of a sudden, he wasn’t getting referred to work again.
They retaliated against him. So he’s filing this second charge, right? For retaliation. Which is why in the first place, a lot of Union members don’t want to file the charge in the first place, right. Because they don’t want to be in the position that this guy, William Hendrick is in.
Worker 1
Willie might be a drug addict. You don’t know. We don’t know anything.
Mike Penn
Although he’s kind of suspicious. If he filed a charge with the National Labour Relations Board and all of a sudden, the work drives up, right? There is a…
Worker 1
No, there’s an absolute correlation. There’s an absolute correlation. There’s no doubt. But we only see one side of what’s going on.
Mike Penn
So a few things, too. I want to address, a few rumors going around. And this is very common in this stage of a Union campaign, very common to have a Union out there [inaudible 00:18:48] doing that kind of thing and to circulating rumors.
So employees will be less likely to support the company. So one rumor that’s been going around is the Union came around here about five years ago and Jack was confronted, and he didn’t do anything. So the idea of this rumor, is obviously so guys think why should we give Jack chance right now? Well, if he had a chance five years ago and he did nothing, what makes you think he’s going to do anything now? First of all, it’s untruth. I’ve talked to guys who worked here a long time.
There have been over the course of the years. There have been a couple of times where some guys have talked about the Union, right? In fact, a couple of old-timers here were telling me they used to get together at a bar. Wish I could remember the name of it. Apparently, it’s one that used to be frequented by a lot of guys in the industry, both Union and non-Union. [inaudible 00:20:00] And they said there have been a couple of times over the years where some guys here, were talking about the Union, but it was never anything formal. It fizzled out nothing that was brought…
Worker 1
I actually heard that it fizzled out because those people talking about the Union were fired. So they never actually got to the point where they got any type of representation or any type of support from any Local. It’s just it was something that was mentioned, and those people weren’t here shortly after.
Mike Penn
And I heard people were not fired for that.
Worker 1
Hold on. Let me ask you this. If there were. So the rumor is that Jack never had whatever. But if Jack knew that people were talking about the Union back then, isn’t it something similar? If he has some disgruntled employees that are mentioning Local One, why didn’t he ask them?
Mike Penn
Because [crosstalk 00:20:55] there was no petition.
Worker 1
Why does it have to be formal? That’s absurd.
Mike Penn
As an owner of a company, you always know. By the way, you don’t have to be an owner of a company, as an employee…
Worker 1
As a human being with a decent morality, do you honestly need somebody to sit down with you with something legal and say, “Listen the guys aren’t happy [crosstalk 00:21:18] mortgage.”
Mike Penn
No. But if you let me finish, we all know no matter how good a company is, you always have guys, a small percentage where the glass is always half empty, right? Nothing’s ever good.
Worker 1
That’s not the case here, Mike.
Mike Penn
Well, I would be surprised if it’s not the case here, if you don’t have at least a few guys that are going to be unhappy no matter what happens. Because in my experience, when you have this many guys, there’s always a few of those guys.
Worker 2
What about the whole?
Worker 1
My point is that Jack knew, so…
Worker 2
He already knew they were disgruntled. Why not step up then?
Mike Penn
Because if you think 90% of your employees are happy, and only maybe 10% are disgruntled…
Worker 1
You take that 10% and you sit down, and you hash it out with them. That’s not what happened. That 10% turned into 50-60 now. See the issue?
Mike Penn
Now it’s certainly evident that there was a number of disgruntled…
Worker 1
Because he didn’t take care of it when it was only 10%.
Mike Penn
The point is now he does know there is an issue, right?
Worker 2
He knew then too, he did.
Worker 1
How could he not if he knew that he had disgruntled employees looking for a local? How could he not?
Mike Penn
I have no idea whether he knew whether they were talking about the Union.
Worker 1
You just stood there and said that there were guys talking about the Union…
Mike Penn
Who said that?
Worker 2
You said that.
Mike Penn
No, I said that employees themselves knew that there were some guys getting together at the bar. I’m not talking about what Jack knew. I can’t speak for Jack.
Worker 1
You don’t think Jack knew?
Mike Penn
I don’t know.
Worker 1
As an astute business owner that has been so successful, you don’t think that he knew something like that?
Mike Penn
Don’t know. Boss doesn’t know everything that goes on.
Worker 1
Yeah, but something like that isn’t something that…
Mike Penn
Depends how many guys are involved, how far it goes. Again, depends on all those things. Point is, it’s never reached this point before. Not even close. That’s the point. Another thing. There’s a rumor going around, this one might be true, by the way, that the Union is going to invite all you guys to a holiday party. That might be true. Again, it wouldn’t be uncommon. We used to do it all the time when I was an organizer. Wine and dine the guys, because this is courtship period.
Like any good salesperson, I want to seal the deal, wine and dine, right. Just remember, if there’s a holiday party, that’s not coming out of the pockets of the Union officials, that money eventually comes from dues-paying members. It’s not coming from their own pockets. And again, it’s with that kind of motor. But again, that may or may not be true. Another thing. So I’m taking a lot of hits on social media, par for the course.
Worker 1
Is that why you don’t have Facebook or any social media?
Mike Penn
Not because of this.
Worker 1
Can I make you one then?
Mike Penn
No. I don’t have any interest in social media. I don’t have any interest in knowing what somebody has for lunch. I have interest in my family and my friends, and I keep in touch with all of them, right? I’ve never had any interest in any social media. It’s not something that…
Worker 1
You’re better off anyway.
Mike Penn
Maybe it’s a generational thing.
Worker 1
Absolutely is.
Mike Penn
But the point is, guys have shown me, right. So a few things, like I said, I don’t care if they attack me. It’s par for the course. I’m a big boy. I have a thick skin. But a few things I do want to correct actual falses, right. That needs to be corrected. So there was one social media post that somebody showed me, that stated that I was threatening employees, that they were going to lose wages and benefits if they brought the Union in.
Worker 2
You did say that.
Mike Penn
That’s absolutely bullshit. I never said that.
Worker 2
Didn’t he say that?
Worker 3
He ordered in a way where he said it without saying it.
Worker 2
Gotcha. Semantics. Okay.
Mike Penn
To be fair, that’s what you’re saying. The point is, as you know, I’ve said throughout this whole thing, there’s no guarantee, you could end up with more, the same or less. Not even guaranteed a contract.
Worker 1
Can I say something with regard to that, though? So if you start your meeting saying you can gain more, the same, or less. But then throughout the rest of the meeting, we’re kind of throwing dirt on Local One. You’re kind of implying that we might end up with less. But that’s kind of the idea, right? If somebody is less educated or doesn’t really understand the scope or concept about what we’re trying to do here, you might push them in that direction and that’s your job, isn’t it? That your job to push them?
Mike Penn
My job is to give you the side of the story that the Union’s not…
Worker 1
They call it True Facts or The Truth, but that’s not why we’re here because you’re not giving us the full truth. You’re only giving us one side. Hence the complaint [crosstalk 00:26:40] …
Mike Penn
I’m not here to sell Union membership. That’s what those guys are out there are for.
Worker 1
I think that we shouldn’t call it True Facts.
Mike Penn
They are true facts.
Worker 2
No, they’re not true facts.
Worker 1
You’re giving us a one-sided story.
Worker 2
It’s a hypothetical.
Worker 1
Let me ask you this. What fact do you find in that form behind you on that screen? What’s the fact that you find there? And if you do find the fact, how many more opinions and things that can just be misconstrued, do you get out of that form? See what I’m saying? We’re not here for true facts. We’re here to paint a narrative.
Mike Penn
The fact is, it’s in writing, this guy is claiming that he went to the Labour Board, filed a charge. After that, his work dried up with Local One, and so he’s now filing another charge. Those are all facts.
Worker 3
But what about the other side of that? That’s what I think he’s trying to say. How do you know that this guy isn’t fucking smoking meth in the shanty?
Mike Penn
I don’t know.
Worker 3
But you’re feeding like this stuff of like such anti, anti, anti.
Mike Penn
In this case, whether he’s smoking meth or not. It’s kind of coincidental that he filed the charge and then the work dried up, right? Well, if he’s smoking meth, why didn’t the work dry up before he filed the charge?
Worker 1
Because they made [crosstalk 00:27:54]
Worker 3
It probably did. You just only saw it when he filed the form.
Mike Penn
You can be apologists for the Union all you want, right? The point is…
Worker 1
I don’t think that it’s so much that we’re apologists for the Union. I think that we want to be, if we are going to be presented with facts, we want it to be presented fairly. And we want to see both sides.
Mike Penn
I think you don’t like the fact that there are…
Worker 3
That you use certain things to manipulate the narrative. [crosstalk 00:28:21] There are certain things that may not be, but we have to be honest about why we’re here and it’s to present a negative narrative on Local One.
Mike Penn
Why you’re here is that the company is hoping that when you hear the other side of the story, so that you have all the facts, right?
Worker 1
You mean a part of the other side, because this is only a tiny part.
Mike Penn
You hear what the Union has to say. You hear the other side of the story. Now you have a whole picture, and now you can make up your minds. And the hope is that you’ll not bring the Union in, right? That’s the company’s [crosstalk 00:28:55]
Worker 3
You would have had a better chance at this if you weren’t so fucking bashing of the Union and you actually tried to like, “Well, the Union could be good in this aspect.” You did none of that. You just kept fucking…
Mike Penn
That’s not true. [crosstalk 00:29:10] I have said the Union is good for some parts. So actually, I made that statement.
Worker 1
What guys are they not good for?
Mike Penn
I think there’s a lot of guys here that wouldn’t be good for them.
Worker 2
Can you explain that?
Mike Penn
Yeah, I think there are guys here that are going to have a hard time making it with the Union.
Worker 4
Why? Are we talking work ethic? Are we talking like a language barrier? Are we talking legal status?
Mike Penn
No. In terms of work ethic. In terms of…
Worker 4
So they don’t deserve to be working on elevators to begin with, then? Because in this industry, you need decent work ethic.
Mike Penn
The other thing is, there’s guys that are here that are very happy with the way things are going.
Worker 2
That’s ten guys. What are we supposed to do? Be quiet so that ten guys can be happy? With the rest of us are supposed to suffer.
Mike Penn
Who’s telling you to be quiet?
Worker 2
You just told me there’s ten guys here and they’re hoping you don’t go Union.
Mike Penn
I didn’t say ten guys. You said ten guys.
Worker 2
Okay, 20 guys, you’re right.
Mike Penn
I didn’t say that. Don’t put words in my mouth. Again let’s be clear, obviously the company hopes [inaudible 00:30:27]. By the way, another reason it could be bad. What happens if Jack’s major concern is born out and the Union gets in and you end up losing a bunch of customers?
Worker 1
We talked about this, Mike. We talked about this. Nobody knows the numbers. So this should not be a conversation we’re having in this room.
Mike Penn
No it should be a conversation we have in this room.
Worker 2
Not if we don’t know the numbers and the numbers that we do have, we’re charging the same rates that the Local Ones are charging.
Mike Penn
You’re saying that.
Worker 2
Well, you’re saying that.
Worker 4
We’ve seen paperwork. But we haven’t seen any from you. That’s the issue, right? So how can we have a conversation without hearing both sides?
Mike Penn
For anybody to say…
Worker 4
Thank you.
Mike Penn
Just like I’m not saying if the Union gets in, you’re going to lose customers, right? Because that would be ridiculous for me to say. Just as ridiculous for somebody to sit here in this meeting and say, if the Union gets in, I’ll guarantee that will never happen. The company won’t lose customers, and this won’t affect the company.
Worker 1
We lose customers every day. My plan is we shouldn’t talk about that. We really shouldn’t.
Mike Penn
You don’t want to talk about that.
Worker 1
Because it’s not fair.
Worker 2
You’re not giving us accurate numbers. We don’t know.
Mike Penn
You are talking about job security. These are issues that you have to be thinking about. These are unknowns that you’re bringing an X factor in. They’re unknowns that could affect people’s livelihoods and their families.
Worker 1
There’s a big question, but I just don’t see how you can make a legitimate [crosstalk 00:32:01] whether it’s a legitimate concern, you don’t know. You don’t know the fact that…
Mike Penn
By the way, I think the concern is legitimate. Whether it happens or not. It’s a completely different question, right? Because neither you or I know that, right? But it is an unknown.
Worker 1
We can call it an unknown, not a legitimate concern.
Mike Penn
No. I think it’s a legitimate concern because it does happen. There are cases where Unions come in and companies lose customers for a variety of reasons. The point is, so you can’t say it’s not a legitimate concern. You might say, “In my opinion, I don’t think it’s going to amount to much, and I think maybe it’s worrying for nothing.” You could take that position. But I don’t think you can diminish the legitimacy of the concern. It is a legitimate concern on the part of Jack, on the part of the company. So, let me continue. They’re attacking me on social media.
The one thing I want to make sure I’ve never threatened employees to say again, “If the Union is in, you’re going to lose wages, benefits.” That’s bullshit. The other thing is they like to talk a lot about, especially this Brian Hauser guy, likes to talk a lot about the money I make. Let me address this, right. I make really good money. However, these guys have been deceitful, and that goes to credibility. They’re showing you the forms that we filed with the federal government, by the way, just so you know, to do what I do, to meet with employees like you during campaigns like this.
I have to be registered with the United States Department of Labour. And just like the Union, I showed you their financial statements, right? I have to do the same thing. My firm, my company has to file financial statements with the federal government. But here’s what they did. Instead of showing you the entire document. By the way, one thing it says on that document, it shows the total that I made in the year. They didn’t show you that. Why didn’t they show you that? Because it’s not embarrassing enough.
Worker 1
How much did you make in a year? How much was it?
Mike Penn
I have to look at the year they’re showing, but what they’re doing. And by the way, you can look at that up yourself.
Worker 1
What about a roundabout figure? Just roughly?
Mike Penn
Hold on. Let me finish. What the Union did was they took the top portion, which has my name and the information, right. And then they paste it and make it look like the same page. They pasted another page from the report showing cheques that the company received, making it look like those are my cheques. Those aren’t my cheques, right? Those are cheques that the company receives, not only for me.
Worker 1
Whose company is it?
Mike Penn
Mine. I’m one of the partners of the company.
Worker 1
So in a way, they’re your cheques.
Mike Penn
No, they’re not. Because they are not cheques that are going into my bank account.
Worker 1
They’re going into the overhead for the company. [crosstalk 00:35:21]
Mike Penn
The point is, but here’s why they didn’t show my annual earnings, because instead they tried to make it look like I’m making multi-millions of dollars. I wish I were making the money that they show. The point I’m making is they’re deceitful. Why didn’t they just show you the form as it is? Why do they have to cut and paste and get cute, and not actually show the main piece of information, which would be the total annual earnings, right? For me…
Worker 1
Which roughly was how much?
Mike Penn
I don’t know for that year. It can vary from year to year.
Worker 1
Do you know how much made last year?
Worker 4
It’s public information.
Mike Penn
It’s all public information.
Worker 1
I know, but I’m asking you, so I don’t have to go…
Mike Penn
I don’t know. I don’t remember.
Worker 1
Remember, we’re here to tell truths.
Mike Penn
No, we are. Because I don’t want to give a false figure, but to the best of my memory.
Worker 2
Roughly ballpark.
Mike Penn
To the best of my memory, $160,000.
Worker 4
I don’t think it’s about how much you make, but how much money you people can make, telling people not better themselves.
Mike Penn
No, I’m not telling you not to better yourself.
Worker 4
No, not you. I think that’s what they were doing, showing how much money is involved in your industry to tell us, not to make more money.
Mike Penn
Okay, but why doctor it like that? It’s deceit. [crosstalk 00:36:33]
Worker 1
You mean like doctoring the narrative with what you posted up on the screen there? [crosstalk 00:36:39]
Mike Penn
The other thing is, they brought my daughter into this. So they posted pictures of my daughter and information about my daughter, and I noticed that somebody in the dialogue stream, I don’t know if it’s a Union member or somebody else even asks and said, “Why are you posting pictures of this guy’s daughter?” And his response was, “Because she is involved in a campaign against us in New York City.” That is an outright lie. My daughter has nothing to do with you guys and this campaign. You guys seen my daughter?
She’s not working behind the scenes. She has nothing to do with us here. So why bring my daughter?
Worker 2
I guess they brought her in because she was still a part of the whole Crossroads group.
Mike Penn
My wife, my mother.
Worker 2
No. Your wife wasn’t in there bashing a Union, trying to stop other people from moving forward. Nico did that with Amazon.
Mike Penn
He specifically said, I have it, somebody took a screenshot for me. He said she’s involved in the campaign in New York City with our Union. That’s a lie. She’s not involved.
Worker 3
You should type your name into Google and then you’ll see articles pop up about you.
Worker 2
Yeah, it’s not just your name that pops up. There’s even something about a rape case in there, bro. I don’t even know what the fuck that was about.
Mike Penn
A what case?
Worker 2
A rape case in there.
Mike Penn
That just shows you without doing your homework. How deceiving things can be, right?
Worker 1
Well, no, I don’t think Local One are the ones mentioning the rape case.
Worker 2
No, that’s just Google. When you Google it, they fired the girl that got raped because as soon as she filed the claim, they fired her.
Mike Penn
By the way that’s not me.
Worker 1
There’s another Mike Pen?
Worker 2
That’s another Mike Pen?
Mike Penn
The rape case, that’s nothing to do with me.
Worker 2
What was that all about? What was that all about?
Mike Penn
That’s about my partner, who was President of over 14,000 member local Union. And so if you want to know, it takes a few minutes. Because the Union always pulls these things out, they do the same thing, and other things with me.
Worker 1
The Union didn’t pull this one out by the way, just wanted to clarify that.
Mike Penn
Often Unions rub against, it’s the Union that passes these things out. That’s what I’m saying. I’m not talking about Local One now. So in that case, when he became President of the Union, he was in charge of a Union, hotel employee, restaurant employees Union. Disneyland was his account. Hilton was his account. He’s in Southern California at the time. And when he took over the Union, he had a membership that was over 50% female. He didn’t have one single business agent who was a woman.
So one of the first things he did over time, he hired a number of female business agents. One of those business agents, when she was at an account at a restaurant, broad daylight, right. Parked in the parking lot. Now, the restaurant wasn’t open. It was open, but it was not open for business yet. Right? In other words, the cooks, all the servers were in there. So part of her job was visiting the work sites.
And broad daylight. She was parked in the parking lot. When she went back to her car, a couple of guys grabbed her, threw her in a van, brutally raped her. Horrible. I mean, really bad, right? Where she had to spend a couple of months in the hospital. I mean, really bad thing. So my current partner, who was President of the Union back then, what he did was he kept her on the payroll through the whole thing. And eventually, she said she was coming back. After twelve months, he had advice from the Union’s own attorneys because he had the other business agents complaining about it, that she has now been out a year against the advice of his own attorneys, who said, “You need to cut her off payroll now. It’s been a year.”
He said, “No, I’m not going to do that to her. I’m going to keep her on payroll.” Finally, I think this is after maybe 15 months or so, she says, “I don’t think I’m going to come back.” At some point, he had to put her on workers compensation. So off the regular payroll. She sued at that point, saying, “You shouldn’t have done that.” In fact, the attorney she had was Gloria Alred. Was a pretty famous attorney. And anyway, she sued.
The jury, it was a jury trial. The jury came back completely in favor of my partner. And in fact, in a very unusual thing, when the defense attorney, her attorney wanted to pull the… Which that happened, that’s not unusual. But the defense attorney wanted to pull the members of the jury after the verdict that acquitted my partner against her defendant. They said to the woman, they said, “Shame on you. This guy went above and beyond for you. We had the testimony of the attorneys who said they were telling you that he should have dropped you. He wouldn’t do it. He bends over backwards for you. And then you sue the guy? Because eventually he puts you on Workers Comp instead of full payroll after 15 months or so.”
The point is that’s what that rape case is all about. It has nothing to do with my partner was involved in the rape, right? That’s what it was. But to show you, we have Unions all the time who pass out just like a headline, and all of a sudden, employees are saying, “Oh, my God. What? This guy raped a woman. What happened?” That’s the whole story.
And by the way, there are articles about this, in the LA times and that. If you continue reading the articles, you find out what happened. But again, it’s just like some guys read post on social media and they think it’s like gospel, like it’s the Bible. Just because somebody posts on social media, that means it’s the truth. Of course, not. You can lie on social media like you can lie in any format. So that’s the kinds of dirty things that go on.
So I’m used to those guys. There’s articles on me that are completely, they’re made out of holed cloth. They’re almost completely falsified, but somebody publishes the article, right? Doesn’t make it true.
Worker 1
Wait, I’m sorry. I have a question from the previous rumor. How much do you make an hour? How much does Jack pay you an hour?
Worker 2
400 an hour [crosstalk 00:43:58].
Mike Penn
It’s all in my filing.
Worker 1
Is it 400 or 450 an hour?
Mike Penn
Not 450, I’ll tell you that.
Worker 1
So it’s closer to 400.
Worker 2
Plus expenses. You got to remember, he lives in California, so they fly them over. They give him a hotel.
Mike Penn
Okay. All this is public information. So another thing, another rumor going around is that Jack contacted the Union, and there’s two versions of this rumor that I’ve heard. Jack contacted the Union. One version is to split up, Start Elevator into both Union and not Union. And the other rumor is it was to start another company, a construction company that would be Union. So let me tell you the truth of that rumor. Jack did not contact the Union. The Union did contact Jack. Level One contacted Jack. Several weeks ago, Jack was contacted by somebody he’s known.
This is a very small industry, the elevator industry in New York City. By somebody he’s known for many years. And this person said, “Local One asked me to contact you, Jack. So I’m calling on behalf of Local One, and they would like to talk to you about a business proposition. About starting a construction company that would be a Union company.” Jack’s response was, “It’s nothing I’m really thinking of for the time being. But I’m a businessman. As long as it doesn’t affect Start Elevator. I’ll listen to any business proposal that anybody brings me. I’ll sit down, listen to anybody.”
He was then contacted by Matt Carroll. Okay. You guys know Matt Carroll, organizer here? Matt Carroll called Jack to set up that meeting, and Jack said, “Sure, tell me when and where you want to meet.” Now, Matt Carroll ended up calling back and saying something I believe was like Leonard Lagati just kind of wants to back off or cancel it.
So they never actually got together. But the truth of the matter is it’s the Union that approached Jack. Jack never approached the Union on any of this. I think the reason why the rumor is going on is the Union or Union supporters want employees to somehow think that Jack is opposing the Union. But maybe he’s playing ball in the background or trying to sell out employees. Nothing could be further from the truth.
So the point is, and by the way, Jack could prove that with emails and things like that, that it was the Union that reached out to him. He did not reach out to the Union on this stuff. So again, that’s the truth. So just again, it’s very common for these rumors to go out, especially the last couple of weeks of a campaign to get employees to think one thing, even though the reality is another.
Worker 1
Can we get those emails?
Mike Penn
I don’t know. You’d have to ask Jack.
Worker 4
Could you ask him for us?
Mike Penn
I would advocate first, because my advice to Jack, would be to tell you first, go to the Union and ask them, and if the Union admits they were the ones that initiated contact and there’s no reason for anything, right? Only if the Union then is going to lie and say, “Oh, no. Jack is the one that reached out to us first.” Then he might be very willing to share emails. The Union may admit it. The Union may tell you, “No, that’s true. We were the ones that approached Jack on this.”
Then there’s no issue. So I say that’s the first place to go. If there’s an issue, then let me know, or let Jack know for that matter. If the Union’s telling you, “You say you’re lying, Jack. You’re the one that reached out to that.” So again, this Union too, has their own history of actually real bad acts, right? We’re not talking about small stuff, dating back from 18 years ago to about 14 years ago, 13 years ago. There was a lot of criminal activity in Local One, just in case you’re not aware of it.
This is the Office of Labour Management Enforcement. Anybody who wants the website it’s olms.dol.gov. This is the agency that’s in charge of conducting whole civil and criminal investigations of alleged violations of a law by Unions. They list all of these different charges. One was a case that 15 years ago where a number of Union officials, including their executive vice president at the time, they were involved in a pay-for-play scheme, where they were getting contractors in order to get the work.
Worker 1
Wait, how long ago was this?
Mike Penn
15 years ago.
Worker 1
When was Lenny put into office?
Worker 2
Lenny just got into office.
Mike Penn
Lenny was not there at that time.
[crosstalk 00:49:41]
Mike Penn
So what happened was they were getting contractors in order to get to the work to pay into a ghost payroll. A dummy payroll. So, in other words, an example is let’s say you have 20 guys working on a project. They would tell this contract, we want you to pay as if there’s 25 guys working, right? So that they could pocket the other, not only the money, but also pocket the money that was destined for the members benefit fund. The Union benefit fund for the members.
So they’re not only stealing from the project, they’re stealing from their own members.
Worker 2
Why are we talking about this?
Mike Penn
To show you the history of this.
Worker 2
Yeah, but if we’re talking about the history, then the history of Start is not all that great either.
Mike Penn
This is recent history.
Worker 2
That’s 15 years ago, you said. Well, Jack stole money how long ago?
Worker 1
Different administration, it was a different group of guys running the Union.
Worker 2
Yeah. If we’re going to look at that, then Jack stole money, what? Seven years ago. Went to prison for it. I mean, you redeemed yourself dude. Time was done.
Mike Penn
Have you ever asked Jack about that?
Worker 2
No, it’s been none of my business.
Worker 1
Why do you have something to clarify with regard to it?
Worker 2
I would love to hear that.
Mike Penn
I do. I know Jack has told me about it in great detail, but I’ll leave that to him.
Worker 1
What’s your opinion on it?
Mike Penn
What’s that?
Worker 1
What’s your opinion on it? Do you think that he did anything wrong?
Mike Penn
Well, he said he did it that he’s the one ultimately responsible as the owner of the company, right? That’s why he took responsibility for it. I will tell you, it sounds like a lot of stuff that went on. He had no idea, right? In fact, he thought the opposite was happening, but he said, “I own the company, so ultimately, the buck stops here.”
Worker 2
I’m just saying you can’t judge them off of that because it’s been years already. How are we going to judge the Union for management that has already been completely changed over? It’s not the same management anymore.
Worker 1
We’re continuing the narrative, Mike.
Worker 2
Just continuing the narrative.
Mike Penn
So anyway, they had 27 representatives brought on charges of conspiracy, extortion, money laundering, witness tampering, mail fraud, tax evasion, other racketeering frauds. And it ended up taking $6 million from the member benefit funds and from the project.
Worker 3
That was back when John got his cousins on every one of the Unions.
Mike Penn
By the way, I had a campaign with the auto workers and the GM of the plant was John Gotti’s nephew.
Worker 3
That’s exactly how all that was back then.
Mike Penn
Yeah. That’s who ran the plant. It was his nephew.
Worker 3
I’m sure he got his hands dirty.
Mike Penn
By the way, I’ll tell you one thing, the only guy that the Union never attacked was him. They didn’t say squat about me him.
Worker 3
We should go back fucking 20 years, maybe. When men were men.
Mike Penn
So we talked about what happens in the last [inaudible 00:53:05]. If the two sides are negotiating in good faith, and they just can’t reach an agreement. So just as a very brief reminder.
Worker 1
Wait. Sorry. Mike, sorry to interrupt. I want to talk about one last rumor that I have, is Jack suspending raises for this year? That’s a rumor that I heard that’s going around.
Mike Penn
I haven’t heard that.
Worker 2
Yeah. That’s what I heard.
Mike Penn
I don’t know. I can’t even answer because I haven’t been in any discussions about that. [inaudible 00:53:39]
Worker 2
You get Jerry at the end of the day.
Mike Penn
Again remember, while the two sides are negotiating, their main legal obligation is to bargain in good faith. Sorry, are you videotaping?
Worker 2
No, I’m on Facebook live. I’m on Live
Mike Penn
What do you mean you’re on Live?
Worker 2
I’m on Facebook Live
Mike Penn
Well then, I ask you to shut it off, alright? Because they are already doctoring things, tapes and all that, so…
Worker 2
Yeah. So you’d rather not be on video, Mike?
Mike Penn
Yeah.
Worker 1
Does he legally have to shut it off?
Mike Penn
What’s that?
Worker 2
Is it a legal thing?
Mike Penn
No, I’m asking you to do it.
Worker 1
What if he declines?
Mike Penn
Then he can decline. That’s fine.
Worker 1
Then he declines.
Mike Penn
Are you speaking for him now?
Worker 2
Yeah, yeah. He is. [crosstalk 00:54:35]
Worker 2
I got bad eyesight Mike, I’m sorry. I need this. My memory is just as bad.
Mike Penn
They have one main legal obligation, right? Which is to negotiate in good faith. If you get a contract, you can end up with more, the same or less than you have right now. If the two sides don’t come to an agreement, they actually reach legal impasse, remember, the company can offer you what’s called their “last best and final offer.” Take it or leave it, and you have two choices at a time, right? Take it or leave it. Accept it or reject it. Remember, we said if you reject the company’s last best and final offer after impasse, and you don’t go out on strike, the company has the legal right to implement the terms of that last best and final offer, just as if you had accepted it yet.
Worker 1
Didn’t we talk about no strike clause or something like that last time? So if we can’t go on strike?
Mike Penn
No, but this is before there is even an agreement.
Worker 1
So it doesn’t apply?
Mike Penn
It doesn’t apply.
Worker 1
Okay. Is there some type of mediator between the Union and Jack, that when we do get to this impasse, they help?
Mike Penn
Possibly. There’s a government agency that’s called the Federal Mediation and Conciliation Service, and they offer their services to mediate when the two parties, even before they’re at an impasse.
Worker 1
Is that a government agency or not?
Mike Penn
What’s that?
Worker 1
Is that a government agency?
Mike Penn
It’s a federal government agency. However, both sides have to agree to it. If both sides don’t agree to have them, then they can’t come. So it’s completely voluntary. And by the way, they don’t have to give a reason. Both sides have to agree to bring in the mediator. But it’s a mediator, not an arbitrator, meaning it has no legal teeth. All the mediator can do is try to get two sides to come to an agreement.
Worker 1
If you had to estimate how many things that they had to negotiate on, how many would it be?
Mike Penn
In a normal contract?
Worker 1
Yeah.
Mike Penn
Couple hundred items.
Worker 1
Do you know if there are things where Unions usually don’t budge?
Mike Penn
Yeah. I told you in our first meeting, and again, it’s only my opinion, right. I think this Union would have a hard time agreeing to rates that are less than their Union scale rates. Because my point, remember, was if they agree with Jack, the next day, they’re going to have Otis and Schindler [crosstalk 00:57:28]
Worker 1
When you mean rates, do you mean what they charge for their contracts or what they pay their employees?
Mike Penn
No, I’m talking about what they pay their employees. The rates the employees are paid.
Worker 2
One Union, one rate.
Worker 1
So more than likely, if we did come to an agreement, then the things that the Union has spoken to us about with regard to the pay, the benefits, the annuity, those are the things that they’re more than likely not going to budge on. And then maybe those are five things.
Mike Penn
They can’t come to the table and say they’re not going to budge on those things because that would be negotiating in bad faith.
Worker 1
Fair enough. Right.
Mike Penn
But you’re asking me what things are going to be most resistance on budging on, I think are those things right.
Worker 1
Well, here, let me ask you this.
Mike Penn
One second, I’ll just finish. Just so we’re all clear. Legally, that doesn’t mean that Jack has to agree with those things. Just because the Union says, “Well, we don’t want to budge on this or that.” Jack is not obligated to say “Oh, well, if you don’t want to budge on it, well, then I’ll give you whatever you’re asking for.” That’s not how negotiations work.
Worker 1
Yeah. Absolutely. I just think that the odds are probably more so in our favor if there’s five things with regards to maybe they won’t budge on, but that 95 other things that they can negotiate on, that we might be all right.
Mike Penn
Maybe. You might want to ask that question to the Union.
Worker 1
Well, give me an example of something else that they would.
Mike Penn
I don’t know what they’re willing to budge on. I have no idea.
Worker 1
No. What I mean is give me an example of something else that they would negotiate on.
Mike Penn
Well, remember, they’re negotiating…
Worker 1
Something random.
Worker 1
No, not those, not the annuity, not the health care, out of the other 95 things.
Mike Penn
Well, they are negotiating working conditions, they’re negotiating overtime issues. They might be negotiating holiday issues. They might be negotiating transfers from one project to another. There’s all kinds of things that could be negotiated. It’s up to the two parties. And I can’t speak for either party in that regard.
Worker 1
And can some of these things they’re negotiating on potentially benefit Jack?
Worker 2
Of course they can.
Mike Penn
Of course. Yeah.
Worker 1
So there is a side to the story where Jack actually may come out benefiting from Local One coming into the shop?
Worker 2
Absolutely.
Mike Penn
That is possible. That’s the idea of a negotiation, right? It’s a give and take. That’s any negotiation.
Worker 1
Well, what I meant is there a possibility where Jack would come out better on the other side of Local One?
Worker 2
Yes.
Mike Penn
Could be yes. I can’t speak for but just like there’s a chance he could come out on the bad end, he could come out on the good end.
Worker 1
Sorry, I keep cutting you off, you carry on.
Mike Penn
So remember, the company has the right to implement the terms of their last best and final. If as I say they reach impasse, you reject the offer, but you choose not to go out on strike. Or remember, the Union can sign it anyway. I told you even though they don’t like doing that. I showed you the example in Disneyland, where all five Unions, they just signed it anyway, even though their members had rejected the last best and final offer twice. Again, that could happen, too. Or if they’re negotiating in good faith, under certain circumstances, the company can lock you up.
That’s like a reverse strike. Kind of like a strike initiated by the company. I don’t know if you’ve been following the news, two or three days ago. Major League Baseball just locked out the players. Again that can happen in any industry.
Worker 2
No, it can’t. I guess of course they can. But not in our industry. We’re not baseball players. We’re here to do a service.
Mike Penn
But you could also be locked out in your industry. Of course you can.
Worker 2
Who would lock us out, Mike?
Mike Penn
The employer.
Worker 2
So he would lock us out by closing the doors?
Mike Penn
We not talking about what will happen. We talking about what could happen.
Worker 2
Oh, what could happen? Okay.
Mike Penn
Or, you can go out on strike. You always have the right to go out on strike. So often the Union will tell employees like you, they’ll say, “Look, don’t worry about strike. Don’t let the company scare you about strike. Because strikes happen in only a very small percentage of all the cases of collective argument.” By the way, if the Union tells you that, they’re telling you the truth. That is a fact. Strikes happen in a very, very small percentage of all the cases of collective argument.
Worker 1
Why is that?
Mike Penn
Because in the vast majority of cases they come to an agreement.
Worker 1
Okay, fair enough.
Mike Penn
However, that misses a very large point. And that is, if that if you’re not going to worry about a strike, you might want to be worrying about the quality of the contract that you receive. Why is that? Because when you’re negotiating a contract, where the Union is with the employer, most negotiators will tell you your main source of leverage is the credible threat of a strike. That doesn’t mean you have to go out on a strike.
But meaning if the company rightly or wrongly believes that you guys don’t have the stomach for a strike, or the Union is not going to pull the trigger and pull you out on strike, what is the company’s incentive to agree to Union proposals? I’m not saying there’s no incentives. I’m saying there’s a lesser incentive, at that point. So often a Union’s main leverage is the credible threat of a strike. At least they want the employer to know, “Hey, if things get bad enough in negotiations, we’re willing to bring our guys out on strike.”
So a few things that you should know about strikes, the first is that, by the way, this is in a strike manual. A Union strike manual.
Worker 1
Wait, you just said that we more than likely won’t go on strike. So instead, can we talk about the things that may make our contract shitty?
Mike Penn
What do you mean that may make it shitty?
Worker 1
Well, what you’re saying is if the Union doesn’t have the leverage power of striking, then the company…
Mike Penn
Can affect wages, benefits.
Worker 1
Well, we already talked about those being industry standards, right? So they’re probably not going to budge on those. So what else?
Mike Penn
Well, you have to ask the Union. Is the Union willing to state upfront, in writing, let the Union give you something in writing, saying that they will not budge on any of those issues?
Worker 1
Even if it comes anywhere close to what they’ve shown us. Right? I’d be willing to take all of that if I lost some holiday days, or if some of my procedures changed, because even still with us losing some things, we’d still be gaining a massive amount more than we didn’t have before.
Mike Penn
If that were the case. Yeah.
Worker 1
Even on just a few things with regards to the annuity, the pay, the health care and the pension. Even just that, like you said, take away my sick days. I don’t care. I can afford to take my own sick days if you’re going to pay me $55-$58 an hour.
Mike Penn
And again, that’s all if, if, if. I hear you. Yeah. If they’re going to pay you $100 an hour.
Worker 1
No, just the industry standard. Like we said that we can’t really budge on. Because if we did, then Otis and Coney would be [crosstalk 01:05:57].
Mike Penn
I’m saying, that certainly would be to me, in my mind, that would be a big reason why the Union would be very resistant on budging on those things. But again, it doesn’t mean that Jack has to agree to those terms.
Worker 1
In your experience, though, what do crappy contracts look like? And can we just try to stick within, like, the elevator industry? Have you ever organized or negotiated any?
Mike Penn
I have not.
Worker 1
No?
Mike Penn
But a lot of trades. A lot of construction, in different matters, but not in the elevator industry.
Worker 2
But you got to understand, we’re going to have questions. Our job is basically to go in and solve problems every day.
Mike Penn
I’m sorry you’re both talking at the same time.
Worker 1
Sorry go ahead.
Worker 2
No, I’m just saying our job is to basically come in and figure out puzzles and problems every day. So we’re going to have these questions. I don’t know what type of question. I don’t know how to run a Labor’s Union. I wouldn’t try. But a lot of stuff you’re showing us here today just doesn’t make sense to us.
Worker 1
Would you agree that it makes you just, I don’t want to use the word ill-equipped because that’s not fair to you because you do your job well, I’m sure. But if you don’t know a lot about the elevator industry, then how can you be so confident in standing up there telling us that you’re giving us the truth when you really don’t have any experience [crosstalk 01:07:24]
Mike Penn
Because these apply to all private-sector employees.
Worker 1
How do they? Because people that work in warehouses putting cereal in Kellogg’s boxes, they don’t do what we do.
Mike Penn
No of course they don’t. But…
Worker 1
They don’t risk their lives. [crosstalk 01:07:34] Industry standards. [crosstalk 01:07:36]
Mike Penn
The type of work…
Worker 1
It’s not just the type of work…
Worker 2
It’s the essentialness.
Worker 1
But we’re talking about industry standards. You’re talking about different industries and one specifically that you don’t have experience in.
Worker 2
You were talking about Disney World a few minutes ago.
Mike Penn
I can read like anybody else. I see what Local One or for that matter, other Locals of the elevator industry, I see what contracts they have. I see their wage rates in those contracts, right.
Worker 1
Can you tell us about them? What you read.
Mike Penn
Well, they have the book. I don’t have it in front of me.
Worker 1
Do you see terrible things in them? With regard to the contract?
Mike Penn
Those contracts are very good contracts.
Worker 1
Well, that’s what we’re fighting for Mike.
Mike Penn
By the way, I made the comment before. If you’re working under those wage rates and the Union is keeping you busy for most of the year, then it’s great. I said that in a meeting before. If that, if, if, if. A lot of ifs. That’s the point. I understand you want to look at best-case scenario, and that’s fine.
Worker 2
Give us the worst case as long as it is in our area, as long as it has something to do with us.
Mike Penn
Yeah, well worst-case scenario is some of this stuff. You don’t even end up with a contract.
Worker 1
There are very few of us that have these rose glasses or colored glasses on. I promise you that we don’t. Because just like we ask you questions, we ask everyone else, and we beat them up just like we’re beating you up. Because we’re not dumb. We don’t want the best that you’re promising us. We want the most realistic outcome. That’s what we want.
Mike Penn
Right. Well, that’s good. I recommend that you ask tough questions of everyone.
Worker 1
I promise you, I do. And these guys know, and they’ll vouch for me because I ask everybody tough questions.
Mike Penn
So again, let me give out this information because everybody deserves to have this information. So again, [inaudible 01:09:31] the right to strike, the ability to strike effectively, and the company’s ability to withstand the strike. The strike should not be undertaken lightly. But the strike is the ultimate economic weapon, and it can backfire. Right? Serious. That’s the ultimate weapon. Local One strikes very rarely. Had only like four strikes in the last 20 years. By the way, when they do go out on strike, the strike lasts for a good while.
The average length of the last four work stoppages have been 119 days. That’s four months. That’s the average. So when they do strike, it’s a significant strike, although they strike very rarely. By the way, last time they went on strike, there were all kinds of charges filed against the Union with the National Labour Relations Board for illegal strike activity. Strike misconduct. Violence on the picket lines. One of your co-workers was in that strike, was a member of Local One, long-time guy who said that, “Yeah, it was pretty ugly. Guys carrying baseball bats, pretty old school.”
Those things sometimes have been in strikes. It’s unfortunate. Sometimes they get out of hand. So, in my opinion, nobody wins the strike. Companies lose a lot of money during the strike. Unions lose money, especially if they’re paying strike benefits during the strike. But the biggest losers in a strike are always the employees themselves, because they don’t have the deep pockets the company does, and the Union does. So every week that you’re on strike, you’re losing almost 2% of your annual pay, right? One week, divided by 52 weeks, is 1.97%.
So again, remember, you’re on strike for four weeks. That’s almost 8% of your annual pay, right? If you’re on strike and you only get a couple of percent pay raise out of it, right? It doesn’t make up for what you lost. And that’s a very common occurrence in strikes. If you go on strike, you don’t collect a paycheck from the company. Here in the state of New York, you can’t collect unemployment insurance unless you’ve been on strike for at least 14 days. You may or may not get strike pay. That’s up to the Union.
If you get strike pay, it might be only a small fraction of what you normally earn. Your co-worker, who was in the strike with Local One, said when they went out on strike, he got no strike pay. It’s up to the Union whether they give it or not. You generally have to be a member in good standing. If you’re behind on your dues or that to get strike pay, if they give it. Normally have to be a member in good standing to get it. And normally, if you get strike pay, you have to perform picket line duty.
By the way, strike payoff would only last as long as the Union decides. Even if they decide to give strike pay, they can decide to end strike pay as well.
Worker 1
Hey Mike.
Mike Penn
Yes?
Worker 1
Do you know elevator code?
Mike Penn
Elevator code?
Worker 1
Yeah. Which dictates how we do our jobs?
Mike Penn
No.
Worker 1
You don’t? Copy that.
Mike Penn
Sometimes guys say, “How am I going to pay my bills if there’s a strike?” As a member of Local One, how much are you entitled to? That’s the question. Because the Constitution of the international Union and of Local Ones are completely silent about the amount of strike pay. By the way, some Unions, my ex-Union, the Teamsters, they state in their Constitution what strike pay is. So you know there’s no secrets. There’s no guesswork. You know if I go on strike, this is how much I receive every week.
Now, it’s not a wonderful amount. But at least you know exactly what you’re getting. In this Union, they don’t state the amount of the strike pay. By the way, what they do state, this is the Constitution of the International User for Elevator Constructors. They say under their general laws, that all members working under covered employment during a work stoppage, that’s a strike, authorised by the international shall pay a minimum additional dues of 20% of members gross earnings payable at the end of each pay period, weekly. These additional due shall fund a relief or strike funds to be used for the striking workers. You might want to ask the Union about that.
Worker 1
You can’t record this.
Worker 2
I’m not recording. This is Facebook Live.
Worker 1
I know. They just called me about that. That’s what I’m saying.
Worker 2
Oh, they did? They called you? Alright.
